I am born and raised with the principle of noaberschap which in a nutshell means that in the neighbourhood or community one looks after another. The cynical person inside me has observed that such a principle has nearly diminished over time now that the survival of the fittest and the 'me me me'-culture has taken hold in many countries, including my own.
The past week has been quite interesting for the Tolkien fandom when Keith Mander who suddenly popped up at LotrFF.com as the new site owner while he was working on new upgrades. The site was offline for about 24 hours, probably due to that the site moved server. After that things escalated, thanks to
esteliel allerting the fandom and fen in this entry, from there things snowballed. The past days many have reacted, laughed, giggled, stressed, tried to offer some advice (including yours truly) to this corporate-once-Google-and-Facebook-employee-newbie-to-the-fandom named Keith Mander. I doubt he has an idea about how a community works and how they look after another. Having worked at a social media site does not mean that you understand users and know what drives them. This oh so clearly shows and oh thank you Capt. Obvious for that!
I cannot help to think that while he follows the steps of his own social media hierarchy model, all he can think of what business this can generate. If you wish to read more
elf has an excellent round-up post with links.
I have arrived at this conclusion because most of his reactions are all about him, what a good guy he is and that he needs to survive:
As I talked about in interviews and on my blog, I do seek out sites created out of passion, truth be told there's just more that I can do with these sites; more improvements to be made and so my time and effort is more leveraged (ie. more comes out of it). There's more opportunity to make some money from these sites so that I can survive. I am not rich. My business accounts are on public record.
Of course, I need to survive as well. Together with my spouse I have mouths to feed, kids to be clothed and put through school. My fannish friends face the challenges alike mine, and their friends ect. However, I work with two site owners who also struggle to survive, but of who I also know would show Mr Mander the door the moment you would come with such a business proposal. Why? Because they understand the value that cannot be reflected in a price. Yes, they pay out of pocket and will never break even. But that isn't so bad, since they are not running a business like Mr Mander does.
This being said: I am not judging Adora here. I know how high hosting fees are, I do own websites of my own and I gulp every year when I have to chalk up the money. Still the pleasure I get from the site outweighs the hosting fees. I can imagine that over time you want to pay back loaned money to others. I can imagine how she tried to find a solution, but most likely did not broaden her scope beyond Mr Mander. That is fine, everyone make mistakes. She just might not have known that someone knows somebody who could help or that one of her devoted mods gladly would have taken over from her. She had loans to repay, someone came with cash.
What we need on a personally level does not compare to what a community needs and what a community can provide to an individual.
caras_galadhon has posted a love letter to the Tolkien fandom and within it she gives a solid piece of advice to Keith Mander. In this love letter you can read how this community works and how noaberschap kicks in when the community is threatened.
As I typed my comment there, I realised that Mr Mander cannot grasp why someone would invest so much time into a community and not earn a decent return of investment on it. Some archives manage to cover hosting fees, some do not. I can attest that many people have worked here in the fandom to create homes for fans, not out of self-interest, but simply because they knew how to do it, that they have the expertise to provide a service towards fans to share the love of the work. With that knowledge or that money to spare, we enable others to share their works, to seek out and connect with other fans. Maybe we do it for pure altruistic reasons. Maybe we do it because we want repay the help we got from fellow fans as we improved as writers. Maybe we do it because designing and running a site is a hobby of its own. Admins and moderators have their own very solid reasons why they run or help out as they do.
This all is done with blood, sweat and tears. No, this is not about that we do not feel appreciated or want the pat on our backs for doing so. We just do, no praise or compliments needed. How often have I not encountered a piece of coding that threw a wobbly and I had to dig in the software where to find and change it. Or that an upgrade should go smoothly and *poof* fatal SQL errors pop up, followed by curses slung at a monitor.
I have been working with efiction for many years and as much as it sometimes annoys the heck out of me when something should work as it should, but for whatever reason fails to do so. Or that I have to wait very patiently at the forum for any help, you also come to love the beast. And this beast has taught me a lot that same experience enables me to help my noabers who run their archive next door. It doesn’t matter if their archive gives a home to a different group of Tolkien fans. You just do and reach out to another so that the community can benefit from it.
Yes, surely a better platform can be made ( I know that there is an interest for it) or he could bring in his whiz kids and help efiction become better for the whole of the fandom, as a kind of thank you note for the current designer Tammy. Just the fact that he ditched it as bad software with his bruhahaha and I can throw in more money to come up with better stuff, that alone got me pissed and made me realise that he's clueless how much time, blood, sweat & tears these devoted coders have put into a piece of software without asking a price for it. It is open source software; they have spent years in improving a piece of software that caters to the specific needs of archive owners and its members. It is still evolving, just as technology does. Will Mr Mander understand that? I wonder if he does because it doesn’t show and his comments are quite telling.
The past week has been quite interesting for the Tolkien fandom when Keith Mander who suddenly popped up at LotrFF.com as the new site owner while he was working on new upgrades. The site was offline for about 24 hours, probably due to that the site moved server. After that things escalated, thanks to
I cannot help to think that while he follows the steps of his own social media hierarchy model, all he can think of what business this can generate. If you wish to read more
I have arrived at this conclusion because most of his reactions are all about him, what a good guy he is and that he needs to survive:
As I talked about in interviews and on my blog, I do seek out sites created out of passion, truth be told there's just more that I can do with these sites; more improvements to be made and so my time and effort is more leveraged (ie. more comes out of it). There's more opportunity to make some money from these sites so that I can survive. I am not rich. My business accounts are on public record.
Of course, I need to survive as well. Together with my spouse I have mouths to feed, kids to be clothed and put through school. My fannish friends face the challenges alike mine, and their friends ect. However, I work with two site owners who also struggle to survive, but of who I also know would show Mr Mander the door the moment you would come with such a business proposal. Why? Because they understand the value that cannot be reflected in a price. Yes, they pay out of pocket and will never break even. But that isn't so bad, since they are not running a business like Mr Mander does.
This being said: I am not judging Adora here. I know how high hosting fees are, I do own websites of my own and I gulp every year when I have to chalk up the money. Still the pleasure I get from the site outweighs the hosting fees. I can imagine that over time you want to pay back loaned money to others. I can imagine how she tried to find a solution, but most likely did not broaden her scope beyond Mr Mander. That is fine, everyone make mistakes. She just might not have known that someone knows somebody who could help or that one of her devoted mods gladly would have taken over from her. She had loans to repay, someone came with cash.
What we need on a personally level does not compare to what a community needs and what a community can provide to an individual.
As I typed my comment there, I realised that Mr Mander cannot grasp why someone would invest so much time into a community and not earn a decent return of investment on it. Some archives manage to cover hosting fees, some do not. I can attest that many people have worked here in the fandom to create homes for fans, not out of self-interest, but simply because they knew how to do it, that they have the expertise to provide a service towards fans to share the love of the work. With that knowledge or that money to spare, we enable others to share their works, to seek out and connect with other fans. Maybe we do it for pure altruistic reasons. Maybe we do it because we want repay the help we got from fellow fans as we improved as writers. Maybe we do it because designing and running a site is a hobby of its own. Admins and moderators have their own very solid reasons why they run or help out as they do.
This all is done with blood, sweat and tears. No, this is not about that we do not feel appreciated or want the pat on our backs for doing so. We just do, no praise or compliments needed. How often have I not encountered a piece of coding that threw a wobbly and I had to dig in the software where to find and change it. Or that an upgrade should go smoothly and *poof* fatal SQL errors pop up, followed by curses slung at a monitor.
I have been working with efiction for many years and as much as it sometimes annoys the heck out of me when something should work as it should, but for whatever reason fails to do so. Or that I have to wait very patiently at the forum for any help, you also come to love the beast. And this beast has taught me a lot that same experience enables me to help my noabers who run their archive next door. It doesn’t matter if their archive gives a home to a different group of Tolkien fans. You just do and reach out to another so that the community can benefit from it.
Yes, surely a better platform can be made ( I know that there is an interest for it) or he could bring in his whiz kids and help efiction become better for the whole of the fandom, as a kind of thank you note for the current designer Tammy. Just the fact that he ditched it as bad software with his bruhahaha and I can throw in more money to come up with better stuff, that alone got me pissed and made me realise that he's clueless how much time, blood, sweat & tears these devoted coders have put into a piece of software without asking a price for it. It is open source software; they have spent years in improving a piece of software that caters to the specific needs of archive owners and its members. It is still evolving, just as technology does. Will Mr Mander understand that? I wonder if he does because it doesn’t show and his comments are quite telling.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-05 05:46 pm (UTC)He's apparently under the impression that open-source just isn't that good because nobody really talented works on open-source projects. And that e-fiction's flaws can be fixed by a few thousand dollars' worth of skilled coding time. Because of course, there are no srsly skilled coders working on it now. Not like the kind you get on *paid* projects. Riiiiight.
Has nobody told him, yet, that the reason there's all these fanfic sites run on efiction *isn't* because it's free, but because there's nothing better on the market? That there is no $500 SuperFicArchive software, no $20/month PerFIC-host option?
Does he really think (omfsm, he might) that he's the first person to ever look at a fanfic site--or a fic site, because there's plenty of opportunity in origific author sites--and said, "wow, I could make serious money by licensing the right kind of software for these activities?" I want to scream at him, dude, you are not the first person to think I'll-make-platform-you-make-stories. Efiction is the result of *years* of finely-tuned coding in that direction.
He's so terribly clueless. I don't know if I want to kick him in the pants or pinch his cheeks. Or both.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-05 10:02 pm (UTC)He's apparently under the impression that open-source just isn't that good because nobody really talented works on open-source projects.
Oh yes! What he seems to forget is that many corporates make use of open source wiki softare, Joomla and what more. It is all open source, you have easy access to the coding and everyone can get it... for free! ZOMG, his head must explode. Apparently only coders who earn a living with it are good ones. Apparently he needs to buy sites like this to eat. Makes one wonder about his skills.
Efiction is not the only one, but as far as I can see the most used, look here. but when you browse further, you'll find that only efiction is the most useable.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-05 06:06 pm (UTC)I applaud for what OTW is doing, but recognise that it's taking many volunteers to realise their vision and also that LiveJournal, FF.net and others do an amazing job - arguably (I know some would disagree) creating a better product that evolves at a faster rate than OTW's offering - and that there's two distinctly different models at play. OTW's comment above by fcoppa seems to recognise this.
Seriously? I think not even the most passionate OTW hater would ever dare to claim that LJ and FFN are a 'great product' evolving at a 'fast rate'. It is so obvious he hasn't done more than spending a minute or two browsing FFN, because otherwise he would know that it is well nigh unusable both for readers and writers. And every time FFN does an update, it only becomes worse.
I keep getting these notices that people favorite my stories on there, though I've not used it in years, and every time I break down and go to look at it again, the way to upload your story has become even more complicated, so that I eventually give up because there is no way to post a correctly formatted story.
Every efiction archive I've ever used works a hell of a lot better than that.
And the AO3 gives us challenge features to automate exchanges like Yuletide, a soon to be revealed feature for kink memes, importers from other archive sites - has Mander even looked at it before putting it down? I know that there are people who object to the OTW on principle, but certainly no one would deny that they've produced an amazing piece of quickly-evolving software in a very short time.
Also, thank you so much for your noaberschap in fixing my eFiction problem! ♥
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-05 10:07 pm (UTC)Oh yes, and it makes one wonder why he sees that as a state of the art archive software wise. AO3 however is cleverly designed, it makes me secretly wish that they make the software available to archivists, so that we can cater to those fans who feel that they get lost in a huge archive like that and prefer a more homely home.
But FF.net is a royal pain in the ass, it strips out formatting, has a poor help function and a helpdesk? What helpdesk?
And anytime, Dawn also offered and she's quite good with it too, she's also a star with skinning. You know where to find us!
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-05 10:31 pm (UTC)"We are creating an open-source software package, OTW-Archive, which will allow fans to host their own robust, full-featured archives, which can support even an archive on a very large scale of hundreds of thousands of stories and has the social networking features to make it easier for fans to connect to one another through their work." and "The first version released to the public will be version 1.0."
I'd love to see what other archivists will make with the code once it's available.
Thank you! I'll try not to abuse that generous offer too much. ;) But at the moment, all seems to be running well. *knocks on wood*
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-07 02:32 pm (UTC)The code *is* available, it's hosted on Github. It's just quite hard to get it up and running for outsiders/non-programmers right now... But yeah, we hope to make that easier one day.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-07 11:42 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-05 10:16 pm (UTC)Of course he has. It's got no facebook or twitter connection options, no forums, no way to see which stories have been favorited by the most people, no "Featured Story!" spot on the homepage to offer as a prize, no "Newest member!" space right below that, no "free story prompt" to use as story-starters, no e-cards, and the layout won't break up easily into ad-sellable blocks. Why, it's just awful. Very basic indeed. How could anyone make money off such a thing?
(I think he's likely realizing--possibly for the first time ever--that not every site can be edited to make money. That a goal of "make money" can actually work *against* a site's purpose.)
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-05 10:37 pm (UTC)We all know after all that the users don't know what is best for them... Mr. Mander does!
(no subject)
Date: 2011-07-08 01:29 pm (UTC)Hell broke loose and the man in question was stunned by the thought out and indepth reactions (on technology, their behaviour and how they were forcing things upon members). Unlike Keith, they announced that they would turn back the closing date and just would give the old forum and true community a different domain name. And if we still could help out. A member (like you did) created a new place and folks are moving over to there because there is no trust left. And men still react all butt-hurt, wtf when we women speak up, loudly? Asses.
How much clearer can we be that we DO NOT WANT to market our fanfiction
Date: 2011-07-07 07:25 pm (UTC)Re: How much clearer can we be that we DO NOT WANT to market our fanfiction
Date: 2011-07-08 12:58 am (UTC)LJ, DW, FFN (altho that will be going away soon), HASA, LOTRFF, OSA – all of these are part of the side of my life devoted to fandom. Even my personal websites at yolasite are more about Aearwen than about the Real Me™. My FB, on the other hand, is the Real Me™, and I keep my fannishness a fair distance away from it.
I don't mind telling folks up front that I write both swords-and-sorcery fiction and Lord of the Rings fan fiction, but I'd rather do that face to face and then deal with the semi-blank looks on their faces. Like you, however, I prefer that the two sides of my online life remain distant from each other. If/when my O-fic novel is ready to submit, I already know how that's done.
Re: How much clearer can we be that we DO NOT WANT to market our fanfiction
Date: 2011-07-08 09:32 pm (UTC)To me the kick would be to come up with something to where a writer would go: oh how cool, how did you know that I wanted that, but never wanted to ask. No, Mr Mander thinks the other way around. He likes something, wants to re-design and implement his shiney's because hey, those over at the Twilight archive liked it too and acts butt hurt when his ass is handed to him. Oh well, I wonder if he learnt anything from this.
Re: How much clearer can we be that we DO NOT WANT to market our fanfiction
Date: 2011-07-08 01:34 pm (UTC)